Think they are planning to terminate me...what are my options

[MissWorldTraveller]

So I saw this email that was accidently logged on our share drive that upper management has been talking about terminating me. I was thinking about leaving anyway but I wanted to hear your thoughts on my options of handling this and the pros and cons of each.

1) Wait until they fire me and then see what they offer as a package.

Pro: get money and more freedom
Con: Chance they wont offer me anything. What would be the likelihood they won't offer me anything? Also, I didnt sign a non compete clause so will the chance of them giving me severance to sign the contract be higher?

2) Quit

Pro: I can say that I quit and didnt get fired to my next job.
Con: I would definitely not get a pkg then.

I am leaning more towards option number 1 however I'm nervous my next employer will ask me why I got fired and I wonder if that will pose a big problem if I choose to work in corporate again. Does the gov't keep a record of why you left your job ie. getting fired or you quitting and do they have the right to reveal it if a future employer calls? I'm already set on not asking my employer for any recommendations and having HRLE verify my dates of employment at this job but I wonder if people actually keep a public record of if you were fired (and what reprecussions it would have).

[FreedomFinder]

Pro: I can say that I quit and didnt get fired to my next job.
Con: I would definitely not get a pkg then.

I was actually thinking about putting together an info product for my muse that would explain to people how to get virtually any job they want. Anyways...

First of all, you can say whatever the hell you want. Just make sure you have friends that have SOME clue of what you do, and can give a reference for you. Companies don't go too deep into checking in to everything. References can also be bought, there are companies that will give you an astounding reference, for a price. Secondly, quitting is definitely a dumb idea because you get nothing from it, can't file unemployment, and if you have no income supplementing your current income, you're going to be in deep shit.


I used to get fired from just about every job I had. A lot of times in just 1-2 months on the job. I would successfully extended what I needed on my resume, took off what I didn't, and had a great reason why I quit my last two jobs (even though about 4 other jobs in two years not listed on there).

People think the process for finding a job is so hardcore and they check everything. I'm telling you there couldn't be anything further from the truth. You can get any job you want with a few key ingredients, (actual job experience is not one of these).

Right now you need to focus on getting another income as if you lost your job two weeks ago. Find a home-based business, do tele-sales, whatever you have to do. And start saving now.

[TimW]

Every company I have worked for verified references (asking both personal and professional references...but we know that doesn't mean much), as well as speaking with former managers. And then they'd ask for names of other people from the people they spoke to, in order to get names that candidates avoided giving. Some have even conducted background checks.

Getting terminated isn't the end of the world....the REASON may be, however.

If you're a screw up, imcompetent, embezzled, etc., then yeah, I'd be worried. If it's a layoff where several/a bunch of other folks got canned at the same time, it's no big deal.

I've been in both camps. And, in the case where I did get fired, I tell the truth. Actually, I was allowed to quit, so I was never technically fired, but I knew it would come up somehow, and being dishonest on an employment application isn't something I do, or take lightly when I was in a position to hire. It casts doubt upon the entire rest of your qualifications, because it will be found out at some point.

"If he lied about why he got fired from McDonald's, what else is he not telling us?" (yep...I got canned from McDonald's...believe it, or not!)

If they are terminating you because of incompetence, absenteeism, drugs, theft, etc., then I'd say quit first. If it's layoff, business downturn, etc., stick around.

[kamakiri]

TimW's advice is right on. It doesn't matter if they fire you or you quit if you do substandard work or gave them a reason. The flip side is that companies can get into serious legal trouble by saying anything about you if they are called for a reference. Most large corporations have a policy of not making any comments at all, other than confirming that the person in question worked there.

That does not stop the rumor mill in the industry though, and if you are high enough on the totem pole, you are sure to be talked about. Now if that doesn't apply to you, then stay on. No sense at all in quitting.

Start working on LD at night, and creating a second source of income during the day. With just a bit of creativity, most people can accomplish what they are doing in 8 hours in 4 hours, unless you are a drone in a restaurant, phone bank, factory setting,... (in which case, hope they fire you fast). Use the extra time you have to get that muse going.

The year is 2009. What percent of the population has been fired this year? Easily the highest in this century, probably the highest in the last century as well. Everyone who doesn't live in a closet knows that. Come up with a creative way to say fired and forget about it. There is no stigma attached to it any more, especially if you just call it being restructured.

[MissWorldTraveller]

Thanks for all of your thoughts.

My position is an Account Manager, I'm planning on using a few of my current customers as my references for the next job (IF I decide to go back into corporate). I know that I want to start my own business that is not even related to this industry that I currently work in after this job. So I wonder if you are terminated, whether there is a gov't record that follows you IF I do decide to get back into corporate sales and marketing because I definitely won't be using my current manager as my reference.

To give you a little background as to what is the motive behind them trying to put me into forced resignation or termination. I'm currently sitting on a territory that will come through for us in the next few months. The commissions on that will be over 50K. If I am dismissed before that deal comes through, my Director will be the next in line to have it. He is the one who suggested I get terminated in that email I saw. He suggested that their cause would be that my expenses were too high (I'm sure he's working on other reasons too though). I haven't stolen or embezzeled money from the company. My expenses have consistently been at that level since I started 3 years ago. All of my expenses have receipts attached to them so hopefully they won't try to do an audit or to come back at me and say "you expensed a hair dryer in 2007, you weren't supposed to!".

Since I know their motive, I know that the end is inevitable but hopefully you can give me some different avenues of action so that I can get as much as I can before they terminate me.

Add'l facts: My employment contract only states my commissions percentage and base, no details on grounds for termination, non compete clause etc.

-What are they chances of them giving me a package?
-Can they fire me based on my expenses being too high or if they ran an audit on all of my expenses in the past 3 years (even though they approved it before) to find cause?
-Should I start calling our direct competitors and negotiate a work remote situation and higher salary then quit?

Thanks again for any additional thoughts you may have.

[kamakiri]

So I wonder if you are terminated, whether there is a gov't record that follows you...

Come on... are you serious? Is this your first job out of high school? There in no "permanent record", it is a tool used by the small minded of our education system to keep children in line. Either way, getting fired carries no stigma at all. Do not shoot yourself in the foot and resign if given the option. Just say no. Why throw away your trump card?

As for your questions, it depends on what state you live in and if they have "at will" laws. You probably signed an at will agreement when you were hired if your HR department has any brains in it at all. They are standard in pretty much any industry these days, and it means that a company can fire for any reason they want, "at will". In general you can collect unemployment if they do it without reason, and you can contest the reason with the unemployment office, and they look at reason a lot harder than your company would.

As for calling your competitors, why would you even think about it? If found, you would be terminated with reason in any state. Your chances of unemployment and severance pay would be zero. Your posts here, for example, could be used against you as well. No reason to be hasty. It is a waiting game, and you have everything to gain by doing nothing, yet everything to lose by being hasty.

Ignore the situation completely and work on LD. Do something to take your mind off it, and avoid rash decisions.

[FreedomFinder]

Come on... are you serious? Is this your first job out of high school? There in no "permanent record", it is a tool used by the small minded of our education system to keep children in line. Either way, getting fired carries no stigma at all. Do not shoot yourself in the foot and resign if given the option. Just say no. Why throw away your trump card?

I had to lol at this, because I've heard it a few times and I always have that same reaction. Though, nowadays, it's actually surprising the govt doesn't have a detailed record of your employment, your dietary choices, when you wipe your ass, and what time you go to bed.

Also, I'd like to point out that in the 4HWW, there is a whole chapter on getting fired... how to do it, why to do it, when to do it.


As for calling your competitors, why would you even think about it? If found, you would be terminated with reason in any state. Your chances of unemployment and severance pay would be zero. Your posts here, for example, could be used against you as well. No reason to be hasty. It is a waiting game, and you have everything to gain by doing nothing, yet everything to lose by being hasty.

Ignore the situation completely and work on LD. Do something to take your mind off it, and avoid rash decisions.

From personal experience, I'd tend to disagree with a few of the points here. If you feel you're going to lose your job (i.e income), then looking for another job, is only a smart thing to do IF (and only if), you don't think you can supplement, and shortly replace your income with some sort of muse, home-based business (be it MLM or w/e), or something of that nature. There really isn't all that much risk and applying with competitors, just make sure if your applying to a position on Craigslist with no company name, and it's in the same area you're in, your not applying to be your replacement ;) Also, if you think your entire income stream is about to be shut off, you have every reason in the world to be hasty.

Remember though: Not having a job is always a good thing, it's not having an income that the problem.

[webgal]

Here we are in the midst of the largest unemployment and number of layoffs in history. Chances are no employer will hold it against you particularly since you were laid off late in the downturn game. I don't think they'll think twice about it.

Any idea why they want to get rid of you?

Personally, I'd waltz in the boss's office and tell him at some point so I could find out why they wanted me out. If nothing else but for the learning experience. But I have a pretty tough exoskeleton. It would bother me more not to know why. But it's also a bold move that would surprise them. Of course, if you are waiting for a package, that might not be the way you want to go.

[kamakiri]

If you feel you're going to lose your job (i.e income), then looking for another job, is only a smart thing to do...

Don't get me wrong here. I totally agree with you. If you need a job/income, and know the ax is coming there is no reason why you shouldn't be digging your well before you need it. In a business where quarterly bonuses run in the 50k range, the market tends to be very small and interconnected. Miss World mentioned calling on direct competitors, and that would be the kiss of death. The chances of it not getting back to her company are pretty slim.

Other cons: If your company is letting people go, others in the industry are as well; With 50k commissions, you probably have a non-compete clause in your contract; If caught, you forgo everything.

Again, my advice ties specifically to calling direct competitors, a bad thing even in the best economy, not to CYA.

And lastly, being suddenly unemployed is a kind of Trial by Fire. It might just be the spark that gets your journey in LD going. After all, you did buy the book, do you really want to start the same pattern over at a competitor?

[clanshrapnel]

Here we are in the midst of the largest unemployment and number of layoffs in history. Chances are no employer will hold it against you particularly since you were laid off late in the downturn game. I don't think they'll think twice about it.



Could not agree more. Everyone and their mom is getting laid off. Just because you're laid off doesn't mean your work sucked. There's a budget, and even mid-upper tier and even top performers are getting laid off. It's not just your work output, but it's also how much you're paid, what others are willing to work for to do the same work, and how much money/time with which your company has to work.

Companies are aware of this.

[MissWorldTraveller]

Hi again,

I just wanted to clarify a few things for the discussion.

1) I definitely do not have a non compete clause in my employment contract. Never signed one and it's not in my employment contract.

2) They are trying to build a case against me so they can fire me WITH cause. That is why I am looking at all of my alternatives.

-WT

[kamakiri]

You are missing my point. Of course if they fire you they will give a cause. That then goes up against them at the unemployment hearing. If you can prove that it is not a valid reason (easy) then you are golden. The unemployment office is heavily weighted on the side of the people. They are by nature against companies firing people.

[TimW]

Most importantly: Did you get a copy of that email?

If not, then if they decide to fire you / lay you off, you really have nothing to go back at/to them with. If you did, well, it's a chip you can keep in your pocket for another day.

[webgal]

The most important thing for you to do is not be reactionary. The fact that you are thinking this through is good. I'm not sure of the legal ramifications but if a lawyer on here would log in, that would be helpful.

Sometimes the unemployment office can be very helpful in offering advice and telling you what is legal and illegal. You can bet they've hired a pro to look at this and determine what you will or will not do. If you are going to hire a lawyer, now would be the time since you are getting paid. Hard to hire a lawyer once you are fired an looking at limited funds.

If you have a SCORE orgainization in your area, that might be a starting place to look for advice.

[officer_dibble]

One thing I would do is keep a copy of any 1:1/catch up notes/emails - if you've been there a number of years and the expense problem has never come up then it's more power to your elbow if you want to contest it (especially if you have been claiming at the same level all of that time).

If it's a well established company with proper procedures and policies - HR will make it difficult for your manager to fire you as they don't want to leave the company open to legal problems. Your manager will need to probably document what's gone on and what they've tried to do to remedy it. This will take time - particularly if they haven't been keeping notes previously (and most won't have).

The exception to this is if it's downturn related.

Stay extremely cool though. Print a copy of all of your contacts and keep it at home (name, details, email and phone - you may lose access to your mobile/computer very quickly), update your resumee and build savings/clear debt.

As a guide - you should have enough savings to manage for six months (this means you don't have to jump into the next job due to financial desperation).

Warm up your contacts - but don't let them you know your intentions. Aim to have at least 100 people who can help you with your job hunt.

Don't quit - unless you have a signed contract in the bag.

Finally don't speak to any friends about this - even in confidence. Things have a habit of leaking.

[Revv23]

One thing I would do is keep a copy of any 1:1/catch up notes/emails - if you've been there a number of years and the expense problem has never come up then it's more power to your elbow if you want to contest it (especially if you have been claiming at the same level all of that time).

If it's a well established company with proper procedures and policies - HR will make it difficult for your manager to fire you as they don't want to leave the company open to legal problems. Your manager will need to probably document what's gone on and what they've tried to do to remedy it. This will take time - particularly if they haven't been keeping notes previously (and most won't have).

The exception to this is if it's downturn related.

Stay extremely cool though. Print a copy of all of your contacts and keep it at home (name, details, email and phone - you may lose access to your mobile/computer very quickly), update your resumee and build savings/clear debt.

As a guide - you should have enough savings to manage for six months (this means you don't have to jump into the next job due to financial desperation).

Warm up your contacts - but don't let them you know your intentions. Aim to have at least 100 people who can help you with your job hunt.

Don't quit - unless you have a signed contract in the bag.

Finally don't speak to any friends about this - even in confidence. Things have a habit of leaking.

Best advice in this thread...

I want to stress the point about the contacts. Usually they have your computer locked before you are out of the meeting you got fired in. Make sure you get it ahead of time.

[DaveinHackensack]

Come on... are you serious? Is this your first job out of high school? There in no "permanent record", it is a tool used by the small minded of our education system to keep children in line.

There are exceptions to that statement, particularly for those who work in some highly-regulated businesses. For example, if you work in a position that requires an NASD securities license, you do get something of a "permanent record" that follows you around, a form called the U-4. You'll see job applications specifically ask for a "clean U-4".

[MissWorldTraveller]

Thanks to all the posters.

Dave,

Yes I wasn't sure of the name but I have heard about what you are writing about. That is why I brought it up to get some clarification. Also, after speaking to a lawyer, I did get clarification that there is a government body that companies report to if they have terminated someone so even if I need a reference for the next job, I can call up this gov't agency and ask them to report the dates I was with this company. Not sure if this differs from state to state.

WT

[webgal]

Do make sure you have a backup of your contacts.