Does the definition of "fraud" vary by state?

[Madmouse2]

In the book (p. 167), Tim says that "It can be illegal to charge customers prior to shipment--but it is still common practice." Later, referring to this practice, he says, "Clever but often against the law."

Does this mean that it is against the law in some states and not in others? Or are there technicalities that would make it against the law in some cases and not in others?

[badhank]

first: lold at the title

second: something can be BOTH illegal and clever. Both of the statement you pointed out are congruent. "It can be Illegal but a common practice" is totally in line with "clever but against the law"

third: if you have any questions about the law, especially when it comes to technicalities such as this, consult a lawyer. No1 here has come forward and said that they are are lawyer. This means anything anyone says here is still speculation.

[dking]

The problem here is that its not the law of the state YOU are in that counts, its the law of the state that the CUSTOMER lives in that counts. You cant game it, and its still illegal.

[lovinglife]

Here's what the FTC says about billing: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/billed.shtm

Basically, if you clearly state how long it will take to a get a customer his/her item and it arrives in that time frame, you are okay. It's when you charge someone and then don't send the product out to them or delay in sending it out with no notice to the customer, that you end up in trouble. For digital products, we clearly state that orders are held up to 24 hours to verify (we have credit card fraud problems) and physical items are mailed in one to two business days and give them approx. shipping times based on method of shipment and their location. For phone orders that may not get sent out for a day or two, I don't charge a customer's card until the day I send it.

[Madmouse2]

Thanks, guys, for helping to clarify this for me. Thanks especially for the link!

[JFrenzel]

Just being honest and upfront seems to pay the highest dividends.


Cheers

Jose

[Marcie]

I read somewhere the same - that it may be illegal to charge before shipment, so I just aired on the side of caution and don't charge before shipment. I am sure it does vary by state...but it seems easier to wait... rather than pouring through the laws of my state, and the seller's state, and the credit card's state...you get the gist :)

[TimW]

I read somewhere the same - that it may be illegal to charge before shipment, so I just aired on the side of caution and don't charge before shipment.

I can tell you that, generally, it's against the TOS of Visa and MasterCard corporation, as well as American Express.

One exception is if the person is ordering a special-order or custom item and the customer knows ahead of time that s/he will be charged for it.

However, Visa/MC are very lax about enforcing the no-charge until shipping thing unless a customer complains.

There are seldom any reasons I need to charge someone ahead of time that would be justifiable to me, as a customer. And this is ALWAYS how I conduct my business...as if I were in their position, because I was. It's not how *I* would want to be treated and, therefore, not how I will treat them.

If someone orders something custom and I don't have terms with the vendor (meaning I have to pre-pay), that's the only time I'll make them pre-pay, unless it's so customized that I won't be able to sell it if they back out of the deal.

If I can offer but one piece of advice that will put you LIGHT YEARS ahead of the competition....apply the Golden Rule to how you run your business. If you wouldn't want "X" to happen to you if you were purchasing something or dealing with some company, don't do "X" to your customer.

It's really a very simple formula.

[andyYY]

Uhm,we're talking about muse testing right?


You can make it very easy,simply when somefill he fields for ordering,make a pop up window saying that you excuse for the problem,but for the moment the stocks are empty due to massive ordering,wanna be contacted when it will be available? Y or N,so you don't loose a potential customer and you obtain his/her email for furthering sell offers...


I hope this was in topic :p

[Madmouse2]

I'm not contemplating being dishonest or anything like that--I'm really just trying to figure out what the laws are.

I'm interested in operating a business where people order things that have to be custom printed, but it would be my designs that would be printed on things, so customers could either 1) be told, or 2) not be told that the things would be printed after they ordered them. The Print on Demand folks supposedly print and ship quickly enough so that people get their items within 2 weeks. So I'm trying to find out whether I am legally required to say that the items haven't been printed yet, even though the website would state that delivery takes 2 weeks, so there would be no false expectations about delivery time.

[kamakiri]

That is a simple thing to fix. Obviously you don't have their orders made up before hand as they are custom orders.

A single sentence: Custom orders require advance payment. should be more than enough to satisfy any legal obligation.

[Madmouse2]

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. I will proceed with my plan and stop worrying about ending up in jail. :-)