Do you ever get the feeling that...

[padma]

although it is imporant to achieve success, it shouldn't be at the expense of value to society? What I mean by this is, many of us (myself included) find it easy to make money without really contributing anything to society. Take for example, ppc arbitage...this is a classic example of making money without "making" anything. During the history of this world, economies and millionares were made by making something...creating a product so to speak. These days, a large portion of wealth creation comes without making anything at all. Maybe this is just me feeling guilty for trying, but honestly is product creation something that seems to be missing these days?

[kamakiri]

Study up on game theory. The problem with being altruistic is that others will not play by the same rules, and if they have the choice they will be mercenary.

If you haven't heard of game theory, I am mainly talking about the Prisoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma). It is a zero sum game where the basis is you have 2 prisoners and the cops offer each leniency to testify against the other. They can either help the other person (stay silent), or betray them (testify they did it).

This model can be used all over the place, but the bottom line is that if someone is given the chance, they going for personal gain at the expense of others is the dominant strategy 99% of the time.

[Caesar_X]

padma, I think you bring up a very excellent point. "Success" can be defined a lot of different ways.

It's easy to assume that maximizing profit is the point. Which leads people to all sorts of legitimate but slightly icky-feeling (at least to me) ways of making money.

When I was younger, I used to feel like kamakiri. "The ends justify the means", and all that.

But really, you need to look inside of yourself and envision the path you want to walk. I know that sounds all "Kung Fu the TV show", but I mean it.

If you feel you aren't contributing enough to society, find a way to change it. It doesn't mean you need to find another line of work necessarily. You could consider giving some of your time to charity for an example.

For example, I make computer games for a living, and I know that I could be making a whole lot more money if I chose to switch industries or if I was ruthless about moving up the corporate ladder. But maximizing income isn't what it's about for me. I'm passionate about what I do and I enjoy the quality of life that my career offers. And I get to read lots of emails from people who play my games about how much they enjoy them and in some cases how the games have enriched their lives. I get a lot of satisfaction out of that.

My opinion is, if something doesn't feel "right" to you, find a way to change it.

[clanshrapnel]

Very good point, Padma. It's one that I've been thinking about ever since I read 4hWW.

What I honestly think is that the way Tim wrote the book is partially to blame. He makes it sound easy to setup an automated business, esp. when he says he gets people up and running in less than 2 months. It makes people anxious to get something up quickly, when in truth, a solid idea that actually benefits society may takes months and months to years to develop.

But that won't sell in a book if you tell people to stick it out for months and years.

Many people on the forums are quick to just come up with something as a muse that, although it will be a near-exact duplicate of something else out there, they just want a piece of the pie. Tim's ideas seem to all offer something different from the rest of the competition, and for that reason, his ideas appear to actually benefit society in many ways (except maybe any health supplement ideas he came up with).

You notice that Tim never goes into how long it actually took him to research and come up with his own business ideas.

I think it is VERY possible to come up with ideas that benefit society and are still successful. Look at 4HWW as a muse in itself, and there you have a prime example.

[Drew Kime]

I think the thing a lot of people miss when reading the book is the first step: create a successful company the old-fashioned way.

Tim doesn't hide the fact that he created a company with steady income by working like a dog. Once he had the financial security, he started looking at ways to automate the process. He didn't *start* with automation.

What else has he made money on? Well, the book obviously. And if you check the credits/acknowledgements you'll see a whole lot of old-style publishing process going on.

Tim is brilliant at marketing and (self-)promotion, but I think his business advice is more valuable in terms of philosophy than mechanics. What I mean is: examining your life for what you really want, eliminating low-value activities, setting goals based on your desires rather than on other people's expectations for how you should live, etc.

And while I'm on the subject of hidden assumptions, there's another step that wasn't spelled out in the book: have a passion for something that lots of people are willing to spend lots of money on. If your only passion is the money, any tactics you use will be hollow. That's where the "icky feeling" comes from.

[AntonTheKhan]

although it is imporant to achieve success, it shouldn't be at the expense of value to society? What I mean by this is, many of us (myself included) find it easy to make money without really contributing anything to society. Take for example, ppc arbitage...this is a classic example of making money without "making" anything. During the history of this world, economies and millionares were made by making something...creating a product so to speak. These days, a large portion of wealth creation comes without making anything at all. Maybe this is just me feeling guilty for trying, but honestly is product creation something that seems to be missing these days?

No. Society controls you by trying to porgram you to think that you are only worthy or valuable if you contribute back to society. Thus, you got workaholivcs, ths you got people working themselves like dogs to make money and buy more things.
For a difference, why don't you do something that benefits you.
I see that me developing myself because of the free time i get, I benefit mankind more. Im free to make beautiful music and interact with people, thus enriching myself and others rather than hammering away Excel spreadhseets all day with a bunch of meaningless numbers.
benefit yourself.

[padma]

No. Society controls you by trying to porgram you to think that you are only worthy or valuable if you contribute back to society. Thus, you got workaholivcs, ths you got people working themselves like dogs to make money and buy more things.
For a difference, why don't you do something that benefits you.
I see that me developing myself because of the free time i get, I benefit mankind more. Im free to make beautiful music and interact with people, thus enriching myself and others rather than hammering away Excel spreadhseets all day with a bunch of meaningless numbers.
benefit yourself.


Sure, society does have an impact, but I don't think it stems from society. I think it stems from altruism and a desire to improve the conditions of the world. Sure, making money doesn't have to suck...but even global economies suffer when manufacturing is phased out.

Anyway, it is just a thought...I just think it is important to keep things in perspective.

[dking]

Yes its true, your worthless because you take and do not give.

Is that what you wanted to hear? If so, you are wasting time not doing what you say you want to do; If you want to help, then help. Volunteer all your new found extra time working with charities, buy a hot meal for the homeless, or start a non-profit charity to handles your businesses giving programs in a tax-advantages way.

It is up to you if you make a difference or not; If you choose to feel sorry for yourself instead of doing something, that is your choice. If you really feel sorry for the world and want to do more to "help it", then take action.

[TimW]

Any altruistic behavior I may decide to exhibit has nothing to do with my desire to make money. They do not have to be either mutually connected or mutually exclusive.

[padma]

First of all, I am not feeling sorry for myself...believe me. It would be hard to be productive from that state of mind, been there and don't wanna go back.

Anyway, maybe my point was lost in presentation. I was trying to get into a discussion about the value of an economy based on production versus one based on something aside from manufacturing, such as financial or information based economies. I'm just wondering if anyone has any thoughts about this on a personal level. I just happen to think that although it is great making money in so many "less difficult" ways, from my experience true lasting profits come from product creation.

[dking]

First you should define what type of person you are; Hunter or Gatherer?

[padma]

First you should define what type of person you are; Hunter or Gatherer?

lol, was that a joke?

[dking]

lol, was that a joke?

Not at all. It amounts to what extreme you would rather do: Gather and use resources others create, or hunt down the raw materials and create something.

Social net workers often gather but do not contribute back; The people who hunt out and create usually make widgets gain the most (usually), and are said to be contributing back to "the world" as a whole.

Granted some people do both - like I am doing now by being here and connecting with you fine folks while I build things on the side - but typically people go to one extreme or the other.

[badhank]

although it is imporant to achieve success, it shouldn't be at the expense of value to society? What I mean by this is, many of us (myself included) find it easy to make money without really contributing anything to society.

Nope, in fact a lot of people that get rich not only dont contribute to make their riches, they make their riches at the expense of the finances/lives of others, or the governments finances. There just a lot of ways to make money is all, some are legit and righteous, others are sleazy and underhanded...

[final_id]

I have trouble balancing "what I ought to do" against "making a living" quite often. I'm dismayed to learn, that it generally works out to a conflict between those two concepts; and even at supposedly altruistic institutions and in supposedly altruistic settings, the people who are more cravenly self-interested generally end up surviving long enough to do the good work which altruism would have driven me to be doing, while I end up canned on my backside because I was so busy being a nice guy.

Really, "nice guy" versus "jerk" isn't a fair dichotomy for most of life. If you find yourself construing the world in those terms, then the problem isn't that the world inappropriately rewards jerks instead of nice guys. The problem is that you're misunderstanding who gets rewarded, and you're using a flawed matrix. Try to find some other dichotomy.

I don't mean to say that this is an easy thing to do. I quite often find myself getting annoyed by the nice-guy failures and jerk successes that I see, just like the original poster seems to be suggesting. I don't "fit in" to business, or really to profit-taking of any sort at all. I'm a teacher and a thinker and a philosopher and a sidewalk-cafe-conversationalist at heart. I don't want to have to assign a dollar value to my existence. But the market and the necessities of living a life require that you have to do that in some way somehow; you gotta eat! That's what I like the most about 4HWW: as a base premise, Tim and his book UNDERSTAND and SYMPATHIZE with this desire to get out of the sell-sell-sell race.

I think, there are people who naturally, perhaps simply genetically, enjoy the act of being involved in a marketplace. They like selling; they like the fact that their stock is going up or down or somewhere; they want to know the prices of things, and whether or not that dude over there on the other side of the room is getting screwed or is getting a great deal. I'm not like that. I can see why someone with (for instance) an upbringing among lower-middle-class merchants in NYC's garment district might assume that the "natural" state of man is in buying and selling, and therefore when he grows up and works at the University of Chicago as an economist he might try to foist his own "natural" sense of laissez-faire economics on everyone else and not really realize that what he was doing would feel quite UNnatural to a lot of people. (It's Milton Friedman I'm talking about here.)

But all that is just theorizing. It doesn't really matter what the economy and the way to eat dinner OUGHT to be. All that matters to us wee small muse-ifyers, is that we figure out a way to work the system and get dinner.

[padma]

You've all brought up good points and for that I thank you.

I am also saddened by a lot of what I see here.

If we define sucess as being the longest to survive at a job or making the most money, then surely this paradigm is not the best way to view the world.

However, if we take a grander perspective outside of our own little self-interests, then I think we could see that a society that focuses heavily on personal wealth and not societal wealth will end up collapsing in the end.

The intent of this thread was not to feel sorry for ourselves, become more altruistic, or start helping the poor. Rather, I just wanted honest insight into how most people view business. Surely one cannot survive if their survival mechanism are not finely tuned, but again I think there can be a balance found.

I guess what I am saying is making money via clickbank selling junk redesigned as ebooks or with ppc arbitrage is great, if you use it to propel yourself to the next level of wealth generation. If not, then do what you think you need to do.


You are right, generally nice guys finish last...but sometimes it isn't so bad finishing last if you enjoy the ride to the end...you know what I mean?

[believer]

My perspective on this is if one has a business that one has a passion for and loves doing, and that business in some way adds value to the society, to the people, be it in service or production, that business will do just fine. And in the end, when one looks back upon the path he has taken, will be deeply satisfied.

[final_id]

Hey believer:

Nice theory. What if, however, your entire life-experience points out pretty clearly, and incontrovertibly, that the very act of taking a profit AT ALL is by definition contrary to the greater good and is therefore selfish rather than altruistic?

In other words, I feel (now having seen so much that I'm convinced of it) that business in and of itself IS the evil. It's the problem, not the solution.

Just playin' devil's advocate, by the way. :) I'm not 100% sure I'm convinced of that point of view ... yet ...

[clanshrapnel]

padma: Like was said, altruism and profitability are not mutually exclusive features of a muse/company. Tim covers this in a blog post.

You can find a balance of both or even a large amount of both, but like you and everyone probably observes, it's either luck or hard work that gives you the balance/high values of both.

You might happen to come across a very good idea that helps humanity (say like the drinking purifier, LifeStraw), and perhaps Vestergaard Frandsen is making a killing from selling that product, but we observe so much of the opposite (that corruption such as drug selling and organized crime) as being profitable that we see profitability and good-morals as mutually exclusive.

The question you have to ask yourself is this: If you don't happen to have a profitable idea that is also beneficial to society, are you willing to put in the time and effort to work on finding a muse that is profitable and beneficial to society?

Seeing how laziness and complacency settles well with a lot of humans, most people would answer NO. That's a personal choice you have to make on your own.

It helps to know that at least people respect altriusm. This is one reason why doctors are more respected than lawyers. How do you think people would feel about Bill Gates or Warren Buffet if they used all of their money to build homes for themselves all over the world and didn't contribute anything back to society? More personally, could you be proud telling about your muse to your family/friends if they asked you what good your product/service is doing for the world?

[final_id]

That's why I'm going to law school ...

[believer]

ye u guys raise interesting and valid points.
mysteries of life...